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July 1, 2023

HEALTHY-HAPPY-STRONG Podcast: Episode 79: Kyle Lusmann - NCI Certified Nutrition Coach

Welcome to the Happy, Healthy, Strong Podcast with Adam Lane! Join Adam as he brings you another exciting episode featuring special guest Kyle Lusmann. In this episode, they discuss Kyle's passion for volleyball, his commitment to living a happy, healthy, and vital life, and his recent milestone of turning 30. They also delve into Kyle's expertise in training and coaching, including his certifications in knees-over-toes assessments and Level 1 coaching. Despite his busy schedule, Kyle generously takes the time to share his knowledge and insights with the listeners.


Tune in for a dynamic and engaging conversation that is both informative and enjoyable.

00:00 Kyle Lusmann - NCI Nutrition

4:37 How did you get into weightlifting?

7:59 Pump Media Podcasts.

14:12 The importance of consistency in your training.

18:31 The body’s reaction to soreness

21:52 The importance of having off days.

25:19 The Goldilocks principle of dieting.

35:00 Reverse dieting and losing weight.

38:49 The difference between mind pump 2 and mind pump 1.

42:04 The importance of having a healthy diet.

53:36 Too much is bad and too little is bad

Lazy Home, welcome back to another episode of the Happy Healthy Strong podcast with me today. Mr. Kyle Lussman. Yes. Gosh, nailed that. Nailed that. Felt good with that. Yep. Kyle, you train people. You train yourself. Yes. You're a big nutrition guy. You play a lot of volleyball. A lot. Yes. You kind of live this happy, healthy, strong life here. Trying to. Where you're a young, healthy guy. Just turned 30. Just turned 30.

Happy belated birthday. Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah. I wish, I got you a couple of weeks back. You did, you did. So listeners, I care, just so you know.

You train people, just pass some knees over toes assessments, certifications. OK, there we go. So you can coach people in everything, ATG. So you have a lot going on. Yeah. And you cut out some time out of your busy schedule, which to come hang out here. No, this is fun, man. I appreciate it. I did.

I love these conversations. These are fun for me. I'm not quite Joe Rogan, but I appreciate these conversations. No, so for the tens of people that listen to the show that might not know who you are and why you're such a big deal, tell them who you are and why you're such a big deal. And then let's go off on this fitness thing. Because you're young into this, but the thing I really respect about you, you're very mature with the angle that you're taking.

with coaching people, coaching yourself to get the, you know, to get good results as opposed to just being an Instagram coach that, you know, takes that 10 second reel of somebody doing some asinine blankety blank. I probably stay away from that because I hate it so much when I see it done badly and I just, I don't want to be that. So I try to, but do you want to start from like the beginning? You, whatever you wanted to go, you go.

So like from the beginning, Kyle was born on a Tuesday. I always just like love sports like that was gym class. It was just like where I excelled, felt comfortable. It's like I feel more comfortable talking to people there than in any other class that I ever took. But then got to high school. It was a pretty good athlete. Tour my ACL sophomore year football recovered from that junior year did pole vault toward my shoulder.

I had to labor them in the shoulder, so that took that whole next summer going into senior year. Got back from that, played basketball that whole year, and then tore my ACL at the end of that summer. Same ACL, different ACL. Different ACL. So I have one limb that hasn't been operated on so far. Hopefully we'll keep it that way. So then after that, like sports, I was just kind of like, man, I don't want to get hurt again. I don't want to keep playing. So then after high school,

I went to college a little bit, but then I started working at the Chrysler plant. And I just, I got sucked into that for a while. Yeah. They pay well. They do. Uh, but yeah, it's not, they did a lot of good things for me. So I don't want to talk to place, you know, um, decent place to work for the most part, but it gets very lonely there because you just, you're walking in, going to work every day. And then it got to the point where I like, couldn't sleep at night. Cause I just wanted to find something I wanted to do, but I didn't know what it was.

So a few years into that, I was just like, I noticed I was putting on some weight. Eventually, I just started working out and never stopped. There you go. Yeah. So in the way of... So started working out. To where you are now, what have you done between there, like, I'm assuming programs have changed, ideas have changed. The first thing I ever did was Insanity. Okay. Sounds crazy. Yes. I started at...

200 pounds and in high school, I had never gotten over like 180. So I was like, oh crap, I need to drop this weight So then I dropped 40 pounds in like 50 days Because yes, that's not the way to do it. Yeah That only works for people under like 22. Yeah for the most part You were 22. I think yeah, I was 21 or 22. I was working out in my parents garage

doing it in the summertime. So it was over a hundred degrees in there doing it. And I would just do it every day. And I stopped eating, which is not the way to do it. Uh, yeah, that was basically chicken breast and tuna and fruit. And, but the weird part was I remember like all of those days for whatever reason, because mentally I was just so into it and it was so fun and I had a goal. And as soon as I got below 160,

think I got to 158 was my lowest. I was like, all right, I can stop here. And so then I was like, I didn't know what else to do. So I just I stopped working out for a couple of months. And then I was like, you know, I'd like to actually put on a little muscle. So then I just I started going to the gym. And there it was just like, I started out, I have my brother was a big lifter. He's a police officer.

I would just ask him and he's like, I'll just like lift heavy. I was like, all right, cool. And I was like, all the lifts. Yes. He was like, just lift heavy. And that, so I did like the bro split chest, triceps, uh, two days a week and back and bias two days a week because of my knees, I didn't do any legs, which is the exact opposite of what I do now. So it's not the way to go about it. Yeah. Um, so I, I did that for a couple of years until I basically ruined my shoulders going too heavy.

I even asked my brother, I was like, yeah, I'm at a low rep range. I can't get any stronger. He was like, go lower. So I'm doing curls for like four reps, you know, and doing that weeks on end. And I did that for a while and I started to get broken down. And it wasn't until I found the mind pump podcast where I was like, they started talking about different ways to do it. And I was like, all right, well, whatever I'm doing isn't really working because I always wanted to look like an athlete, but I was training more like a bodybuilder. And so I started listening to their stuff and their training

that I started buying their programs, listening to their podcasts every day at work. I had 10 hours a day to kill. Because working at the Chrysler plant is just hand movements all day and then your brain just tunes out because you're so used to it. So the podcasts really helped and that's when I fell into podcasts like that, Joe Rogan, Lex Friedman, all those guys. So between, I find this to be insanely common. So what have people tried before? Well, they've tried the P90X, the Insanity or the, you know,

whatever DVD from the comfort of their own home, because, which is not the worst thing in the world. Now there's YouTube too, YouTube things. And you know, at least it's something. You know, it's getting people to do something. Yes. No wait, busy people out there, busy moms who have like 25 minutes where just, boop, YouTube something and just do it. It's better than doing nothing. So like. Absolutely. Doing anything is better than nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have that. And now, hey, I want to get bigger, so I want to, I jump to the gym. What am I doing? I'm doing everything upper body.

Um, and I'm going to get his jacked as heck every day is bench day. Um, it's not true, but people are insecure about it too. Steven, I came from being an athlete and I was a young guy and I was still like insecure going into the gym. I get just, I thought my legs were too big, so I never wanted to lift legs. You know, I have shorter legs. So I was like, I don't already, I would do calves sometimes, but that was about it. I didn't realize how important your feet and your calves and your glutes and all that were until I started. With volleyball and I was like, Oh man. Okay. So.

this is all stuff I need to work on. Yeah, yeah. So from that point, finding some of the, and we're both big fans of Mind Pump Media Podcast, I think they do a fantastic job. Very balanced in their approaches. Many different avenues to go down, depending on who you are and where you are in your life. What did you learn from them? Like what's one of the big pieces that you use now with your training of people? You don't need to train every day.

And you hardly ever have to train like to your maximum, like one rep maxes. I can't tell you the last time I did one rep maxes and I look way better today and feel way better than I ever have. Like moving heavy amounts of weight for like one rep is unless you're a very elite athlete, do it on occasion. But for the average person, like you have no business hitting a one rep max deadlift at all. You don't have the experience nor the muscle control or the knowledge to do it.

Yeah. You just, you shouldn't. Even thinking back to every max deadlift I've ever pulled in my life, I can't think of a time where I haven't, like my back hasn't hurt the next day. Yep. It's always hurt. Even though I think I pull with good form. Like it's, you know, you're going, you take a race car, you know, whatever, 250 miles an hour, like, yeah, like a lug might, lug nut might come a little bit loose. So, you know, you have to be smart with

know, how you attack that. I couldn't agree with that more. I one of my biggest pet peeves on either side of the gym, whether it be the youth side of the gym or the adult side of the gym is you should never fail a lift. Like failing a lift is not an option. That's not that one. It's insanely dangerous. Very. Two, to your point, if you're pushing that line that hard, like, and especially weeks on end months on end, your body doesn't like it. Yeah.

there's a reason you're not supposed to do it that often. And it will break down. It will. It will break down. I broke down in my mid-20s from doing it. So, God forbid you're doing it in your 30s and 40s and 50s. Yeah, it gets worse. You know this. So instead of driving towards that, because we are Oak Strength. Strength is a big pillar here. Instead of driving towards that one rep max, because I think that's a lot of the times how people look at, well, am I better? Well, what's your max? Like,

Oh, well, it was my max was this. And now it's this. And because this second number is now higher, obviously, I've gotten stronger because of my one rep max is higher. What's the smarter way to attack? Am I getting stronger? Because obviously, we want people to get stronger. Yeah, you coach people in strength. What? How do we look at it? Programming is so important. Work, you should be in a low rep range and a certain amount of sets and exercises for maybe four to eight weeks at the most. And you need to get out of that and do something.

completely different. Because your body, best way you can explain it is it's an adaptation machine. So whatever you're putting in front of it, it's like, okay, well we gotta get used to whatever this is. And you want 100% return on whatever you're doing. So the longer you're in that, the less of a return you're getting, why would you go and work out and only get 50% when if you could change things up and get 100% back on it? You're in there putting the work in anyways.

So to, let's dissect that in the way of changing it up. Yeah. Let's define that really quick. So I usually, you can manipulate a lot of things like your tempo. Everybody I've ever worked with works way too fast. I have them do, I have everybody that I come to an assessment with do a split squat and they drop right down and come back up. And I'm like, that is the exact wrong way to do it. Bounce out of the bottom. Bouncing out the bottom. So tempo, very important.

Your rep range, uh, rep ranges can be when you're in the low range, like two to five high ranges, like 15 to 20, you got to switch those up. You got to switch which exercises you're doing the amount of reps. You just, you can also switch up your training style for more of like a performance to more of like a bodybuilding style to more of like, all right, let's go into flexibility now. Like you can schedule that out all throughout the year. And that's really what works best. Cause your body does need a little bit of everything, but

you can't do everything at once. You can't get super strong and super flexible. Like those two things are antagonists. It doesn't really work. Yeah. But we're really hard to gain muscle and lose weight at the same time. Not saying you can't do it. Yes, it's a hard thing to do. It is. And it's easier, the more experienced you are with it. Some everybody that comes to me wants to like lose weight yesterday. Yeah. I'm like, okay, well,

I did 50 pounds in 40 days. So that's how we do it guys. I know everybody's just got to slow down. It's a marathon, not a race. Everybody wants to get to a certain point in three or six months. And I'm like, look, you don't even have like the experience in the gym to get there if you wanted to. Like it's a skill to go in and work at the gym. Like I can go in and get way more out of two sets of dips because I know what muscles I'm working and how to do it than a newbie can out of six sets. Yeah.

Just because I know exactly what needs to be worked and how to do it, what muscles the tension up. Another big lesson I learned, actually this is from, I forget his name, but you do, instead of thinking about moving weight, you challenge muscles. That's, I tell everybody, that's one of the biggest things I ever learned. Like if you're doing a set and you can get more of it, but you're not actually feeling it the right way, regress. Yeah.

I learned that myself with a, cause we're doing the Sparta science, getting my scans done. So I started a hip thrust and I got to the point where I'm hip thrust in, you know, 250. But then I tried to do a single leg, like glute bridge. I can't even feel my left glute. And I'm like, okay, so that, that's not really doing me too much good. Hip thrust in 250. So when in doubt, regress, regress to like the thing that you can do perfectly and then slowly work your way up. Which is a huge hit for most people's egos.

Cause it's so humbling. It's easy to work out at home that way. Yeah. For sure. No, absolutely. You're used to, Oh my gosh, but I was doing this much weight. Yup. But then as soon as you start seeing the results and you start feeling better, it makes it so much easier. You just, people gotta be patient, man. They really do. Yeah. I think that's, that's so hard for people to swallow. Cause they want, they want that workout. And then they want to, they want to look in the mirror and see instant results. And then when they get on the scale, they want to see instant results. And there's

It's impossible. Yes, you can't do it. No. Impossible. I want to circle back to and I love what you said here in the way just with the way of, you know, after that four to eight week piece, switching it because it's different for everybody. As long as you're progressing in your weights, like that's a really good sign is if you're not improving on your reps, which is why you need to track your workouts. That's a red flag to change it up. Yeah.

Well, and this is why we specifically run six week cycles. So like, hey, we're wrapping up this week. So we worked up to a heavy five on the front squat, whatever it was two days ago. Challenging, dare I call it a five rep max, but like, which I kind of like that, where like if Mary puts weight on the bar and she gets after it and she gets to rep three and it's getting bad, you're like, hey, time out, Mary. We're done, racket.

It's not worth it. Like, duh duh. You thought you could do it? You didn't? World won't end. Let's take a little weight off. Let's try it again. Versus if you do that with a one rep max, I'm gonna try it! Well, it's one rep and you don't know if it's coming up until you're there. I'll never forget. The heaviest one rep max I had for squatting was 305. And I have a slight imbalance because

I was a one leg jumper and I saw some of my left leg and it's always my lead leg. So it's just a bit stronger. The problem is you get under a heavy squat like that and you've got one leg that's stronger. You start coming up and then you lean to one side. That knee has kind of hurt ever since. So learn from me people. Since that back squat? Yes. Since that one, yeah. How long ago was that? That was three years ago and it still feels a little different today because I was stuck under there and it's like, well, I'm not going to get crushed by the bar. So you push through it, but I was like.

80% of that work went to my left leg. Yeah, yeah. So then you're looking back on it like, oh my gosh, like I got the number. Check the box. I don't give a shit about the number. Yeah. My knee hurts. Yeah, exactly. Right. Exactly. And that's, I think that's hard for people to understand. It's very hard for people. You know another thing that I tell people all the time that they want to get in shape as quick. They think they can do something for six months and then be in shape forever. Yeah. The amount of people that I've seen like, oh, I just want to like.

go until this point and then I'll be good. And I'm like, no, you're not. You probably won't even get there in the six months. Like if you find somebody that's done something for six months and been in shape forever, send them my way. I wanna know what they did, cause I'll do it. Some amazing genetics going on right there. Yeah, tell me about it. No, I think it's, I mean, going back to the cycles, this is why we run six week cycles, cause we're getting so heavy on the front squat this last week here. And then for the next six weeks, we're really not gonna touch a front squat. It's just not, you know,

mix still have heavy pro you know lifting I think we're playing around with some sumo deadlift stuff. Yeah. Obviously some heavy pressing pulling variations and stuff as such. Actually, some heavy back rack lunges are coming people if you're listening. Yeah. Which you know, but again, just not that same, you know, again, just to get off the horse a little bit. Yeah. And again, I think it's six week cycle after six week cycle after six weeks cycle, or fours or eights or whatever it might be. But if you try to do the same thing,

over and over and over and over and over and over. Like, you know, and just, like, it will work to a point. But then it will stop. Everything works, but nothing works forever. Yeah. Yeah, there we go. Who said that, by the way? Because I say that quote all the time, but somebody else said it. I don't know if it's mind pump or where I got it from. I don't think it's mind pump. But yes, everything works, but nothing works forever. Yeah. Yeah, another red flag is if, I don't want people to leave the gym and be completely destroyed and sore, but you always notice when you start something first.

two, three, four weeks, you are getting a little sore. As soon as that soreness starts to die down, that's when your percentage of return, you know it's starting to come down a little bit. Because your body's, it's adjusting to it. Now it's like, hey, I want you to do something else so we can change. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's the, there's a line there too. Yes. Because we have a lot of people that walk in, they just want, they want their butts kicked and they want to limp out the door. It's the same kind of people, the type A's. Yeah, like, oh, I want you to, he didn't kill me in hard enough today, it was too easy.

A, you could have gone harder. Or B, can you talk to the body's reaction to a, for the good and the bad. We hit Murph. You know, the Murph workout. One day, you know, the Memorial Day. I've done it a few times. It's challenging. Never was the best. Yeah, that's, makes us pull up something, let me tell you. Well, if you're doing the cheating ones, that makes it easier.

Do you allow those? Not really. Okay, good. No, yeah, we're pretty flexible with the... That is definitely the hardest part of the Murph. Yeah, yeah. Well, especially with an extra 20 pounds. Yes. Now, if you have that shoulder stability and you're able to, like, I think it's... The KIP, I think, is a unique thing. It's just a different thing. It's people kipping who can't handle a KIP. It's not gonna build you much muscle, I can tell you that much. That's the thing.

It's definitely a skill. And I think going back to the point that you said earlier about, that heavy squat or that heavy deadlift, no different than you trying to pull vault or playing football back in the day or shooting a basketball. These are skills no different than you pulling a heavy deadlift is a skill. I've been lifting for 30 years. I know exactly how that heavy deadlift is gonna feel. I know exactly how- The setup is so important, how you're getting there. And people just, especially kids, that's-

I know you work with kids. They just get down and pull it and you see the background like a cat real quick and you're like, oh my God. You can see it happening. You gotta start early so it doesn't happen. And you tell them to flatten their back and they don't know how to. So literally I'll take a video and I'll show it to them. Do you see this? You see this? Oh. Yeah, that makes sense. I know, I wish I had the body control I do now back in the day. That would have been very helpful. Yeah. We're gonna hack up an athlete.

Yeah, right. Tell me about it. Yeah, if I could put this brain in 14 year old me, that would be fantastic. Mr. Window. What um, oh gosh, we were talking about something, the strength piece, one rep maxes, mixing it up, programs. Oh, no, the button. So our people did Murph. Yay, Murph. Yeah. Fine. People feeling destroyed the next day.

Now, it's nice to push yourself, but if you push yourself to that level of soreness, level of exhaustion, like people think that's going to speed up their results to get them to where they want to be. No. Talk about that. It's not going to. Well, because also it impedes more working out. Because you can't work out the next day, or at least you shouldn't. And it's a shock to the body, if anything.

You want to work out, you want to find out what you can do. Like whatever you do to lose the weight, you're going to have to keep doing. I don't want to kill myself in the gym like that all the time. So however you lose the weight, you're going to have to keep doing it. That's why I go with the two to three to four days a week workout. And then you got to have your off days. Uh, the, the killing yourself, it's just, it's not doing anybody any good. That happened to actually, to me recently. So I was playing, I played too much volleyball in a weekend. Is there a thing? Is that a thing?

Mentally? No, physically. Yes. Oh my God. I played grass for like four hours on a Saturday. And then we had a sand tournament that Sunday. And I knew when I woke up Sunday, I was just like, man, I'm not feeling like awesome today, but I can't bail. I was like, so I'm going to go. I went and that Monday, I was so unproductive. I was irritable. Like just getting, I'm the one that puts the dinner away in the house. Just like,

I can't stand when it gets wasted and left out. So that's my job and I really don't mind it. But even just doing that was pissing me off. And why would I, and then I told the wife about this and she was like, well, that's how I feel all the time. And I was like, okay, so when people's bodies are stressed out and they don't feel good, just like the everyday tasks become difficult. Like you wanna make it, working out's supposed to make your life easier, not harder. Why would you wanna come in here and kill yourself? And it's also, it's

At least for me, it's harder to get myself up to go to the gym knowing that I'm going to kill myself. It's a lot easier showing up when I'm like, you know what, let's just do a half hour and then see what happens. If I don't feel that great, I'm leaving. Yeah. You know, get out the gym. Sometimes getting up. That's not a good lesson for everybody because most people aren't in the gym enough. But for the ones that are in there killing yourself, like take a day off here and there. Yeah. Well, and I think so, so I can go do a couple different pieces. You hit Murph on a Saturday. Sunday.

could, should be a day off. Okay. But hey, there's this volleyball thing going on that I signed up for. Hey, there's this 5k Memorial Day 5k that my friends are doing and da da. We had one lady drop in, God love her. Not a member of the gym, but a friend who did Murph with us on Saturday. And then she was going to do a second Murph on Monday with a different gym. She just dropped in. I teach their own but like there's

Yes. So like what can happen here is that you beat yourself up from a physical standpoint. Um you don't recover okay like you're like you're saying um and I've noticed this with my kids where I've over trained where all of a sudden they want to do something with dad I'm like oh my gosh yeah guys I'm just tired you know and now I'm thinking to myself I'm choosing pushing sleds and squatting weight over you know outside time playing time with dad because he

dumb freaking workout that he did where I don't even have time. Like you said, the training should supplement your life. It should not hinder your life. I tell people all the time, I do like working out, but I don't love it. I love having worked out. Just because, you know, like mentally, I just feel so much better. Because some people were asking me that like early on, because I was working out all the time and I was like, they're like, oh, it must be easier for you. You love to go there. And I was like,

Sometimes I'll sit in the car for 20 minutes. Like I don't, sometimes I don't want to go in, but then when I leave, I've never felt better. Cause you accomplished that, that day. Like that's, that's a win. Yeah. You know, you celebrate that. Yeah. Well, and cause so beat the, cause I want to attack this piece. So again, I'm still at Murph here. So people,

Say they do get that rest and recovery piece to a point. Like you said, it could take away. Like if you wanted to go to the gym the next day, you can't go to the gym the next day. Nor can you perform to the level that you should if you didn't kill yourself the day before. So killing yourself, can you talk about what the body does when you kill it in such a Murph out, such a work? The body does, your body is worried so much about.

just recovering and trying to be safe, that you're not even getting a whole lot of benefit out of it. That's what I mean. Your body, your body wants to feel good and you're doing the exact opposite. You're breaking it down. You gotta have this body for the rest of your life. You're not making new ones. Take care of it while you can. That's my philosophy with everything. People are like, you know, why are you doing this? Why are you into it? And I'm like, I think, I don't want people to think this is like weird, but I think of myself as like a 70 year old man, like every day.

And I don't want to like hurt when I walk around. I don't want to be extremely overweight. I want to feel as good as I can by the time I get there. You can't start when you're 60. Yeah. You know, this stuff compounds over time. So the earlier you start, the better you are. Yeah. You heard of the Goldilocks principle? Are you familiar? Go over. So like three bears where like if you do, you know, if you walk around the block and expect to lose 20 pounds like that, that's just not enough stimulus, you know, whatever.

However, if you beat the crud out of yourself, you know, hey, I'm going to do six Murphs in a row. Yeah. You know, why did one Murph? Well, that's great. Why don't you do another? If one is good, two is better, you know? Great. You did two, you know, do three. What the heck, you pansy? Get after it. So, you know, one is not enough stimulus. One is too much stimulus. And then the third one just being just right. Yes. Yeah. Too hot, too cold. Just right with porridge here, you know, and just being able to, oh, now I'm back to where I, you know, and ideally this, you know,

you, well, actually it kind of goes the other way. You get beaten up first and then you recover and get better. And now we're up here and then you beat up and then you get better. And then this over time, this, this line waves up as opposed to beat the crap out of yourself, take forever to recover, get sick, you know, miss days, da da, and now try to get back up. Oh my God. Like you just like one sickness, one, you know, one even partial injury, one thing where, oh, I can't feel my shoulder a little bit.

With the overworking thing, you want to have a setback, get injured. That'll set you back more than anything. Cause then also then you're unmotivated. You're eating bad. Like I went over that with a client earlier this week, cause she, she had a like pink eye or something. So she was out at the gym and it was out for a couple of weeks. And then she was also eating like crap. And I'm like, that's actually the time to eat very well because you're not getting the extra movement from the gym. And now you're compounding that by eating shittier. You actually, if anything, you should be eating healthier now.

Yeah. You should be less hungry because you're not going to the gym. Actually. Yeah. And that Goldilocks zone, that's different for everybody. Depending on your age, the level you're at, uh, for the average person, like the average adult, a full body split three days a week is plenty. You know, you got enough on your plate. You're working 40, 50 hours a week. Like that's, and you will put up, will it take a little bit longer? Like honestly, maybe not. Cause you're not overworking yourself. You're giving yourself the proper recovery.

You know, and you're not so hard on yourself. Yeah. It, I had somebody come to me that they were like, Oh, like make me a program. I want to go to the gym six days a week. And I'm like, listen, not only will you not be able to do it. You shouldn't do it. Sure enough. I was like, you can try it. Yeah. Go ahead. They went to the gym five days a week, one week, and that was it. And they, they didn't want to go anymore. And I was like, so now you feel like shit. Cause you didn't hit your goal. Why don't you make it three days a week? And that's a win.

That's all you got to do is make it three days a week. Yeah. That makes it much easier and you feel a lot better about yourself. Yeah. Even I don't go to, I do something a little bit every day, I would say, but I never hit a workout six days a week. Yeah. No, that's you don't need it. Yeah. Well, not allowing the body to adjust and recover like the sixth time. Yep. Um, and if really your goals are to be, you know, happy, healthy, strong, like that, I think is exactly what you need. If your goal is CrossFit Games champion.

I think that's a different conversation because now you have to train like an athlete, you know, and practice these movements and you know, training and nutrition. Those are two very different things from an athlete to the average individual to somebody that's going for aesthetics. Like those are three very different avenues that you can go in and you can talk about. Yeah. Let's change this in here. Yeah. Nutrition, you just mentioned. There we go. You you just got the NCI certification. NCI level one certified nutrition coach. Which stands for?

Nutritional Coaching Institute. Okay. Fantastic. Run by Oh, gosh, what's his name? Jason Phillips. Thank you. Jason's been around a long time. I oddly enough went to a mastermind with him back in like 2014 or something like that. It was a long time ago. Yeah. Where he was just trying to get this stuff going. And now it's blown up for him. Like he's really is. Yeah, he's done insanely well. Talk about I wouldn't mind.

Again, every nutrition, you're about to give out all the secrets. Yeah, right. That's what's about to happen here. No, I'm curious what you learned from this and then, um, like what, what was easy for you and which to implement with your clients. You know, so you do learn a lot of information about nutrition. The thing that they talk about a lot, which I actually really like is the knowledge is doing nothing. If you can't relay it and relate to the person and make them understand it, you could have.

have a book in your head and you can recite things, but if it's not relating to the person, you are doing them no good. So, uh, just being able to relate to people and explain to them why certain things work and why certain things don't. Everybody that comes to me has tried low carb. They've tried keto, they've tried fasting. And then I worked their macros and I tell them when I start with a client, usually I'm just like, all right, we'll just like track food for a few days, take pictures of it, whatever you got to do. And I add up how much. And I'm like,

you're already under eating and can't lose weight. So, uh, and I, you know, I explained that to them and they're like, they don't get it at first. And I try to tell them, I'm like, you don't understand how much food I eat, especially now doing so much volleyball. Like because I'm an athlete, I call myself, yeah, go with that. Yeah. I probably have pizza three times a week, to be honest. Uh, but if I was going for aesthetics, I would not be having pizza three times a week.

But in terms of a macro breakdown on pizza for athletes, it's actually kind of right where you want it to be in terms of high amount of carbs, decent amount of protein, and a right amount of fat. That's right where you wanna be for athletes. Yeah. So let's talk about this, because I think a lot of, you said something interesting there that I don't want people to get confused on. You said people under-eating and not being able to lose weight. Yeah. How could I eat too little?

And not, but this is common. Most people I run to have a broken metabolism. And that happens when you don't have enough muscle on your body and you've starved yourself to get to a certain point. And what we were talking about earlier with your body getting used to things, it also gets used to what you're eating. So if you're only eating 800 calories a day for a long time and fasting throughout the day, people think it works because it does work for about a month or two.

Yeah. And then they get stuck. They're like, I lost 20 pounds, but I'm trying to lose 50 and now I'm not eating anything. What do I do? Well, that's where the strength training comes in. Yeah. That's the only way to improve your metabolism is eat more and build muscle. Cause if you have more muscle on your body, you're able to intake more calories because your body is just, it takes calories to have the muscle on your body. So, and people don't know this too. You lose the weight fast. You're losing muscle and fat.

And honestly, a lot of times it's a little bit of both. Yeah. Which, um. Even if you go slow, it can be a little bit of both. Yes. Yeah, so it's almost impossible to lose a significant amount of weight without a little muscle. Yeah. Believe me, I've tried. Yeah, yeah. Significant, yes. Little bit doable, but yeah, a lot of weight. That's the thing. So for, cause that's interesting to people. Do you do much with the reverse diet piece? That's basically what I do with everybody. Okay. Because.

I've only want to explain to people what that means. So reverse would be slowly building up your calories so your body can adjust to it. It's building up my calories. Oh my god, you got to actually put on five pounds to lose 50 eventually like big deal. Right. But it is hard getting that across to people. But I a lot of times what I do is I when I try to explain that and I explain it the best I can. And there I told people like your body thinks

Your body doesn't know it's 2023 and it doesn't know there's grocery stores. It doesn't know there's food in your pantry. You're all the time. It, it doesn't know that it's around. So your body thinks it's known the year 1500 and you haven't been eating and it's start, it thinks it's starving to death. So you know what it's going to do? It's going to hold onto this as much as it can, because we're not going to die. Your body doesn't have a, it's got a mind of its own, but it's not this one. Yeah. And those are two completely different things. So I usually let them try it. And I'm like, okay, well if.

Cause I had somebody that came to me that was trying to lose 30 pounds for vacation in two months. And I told him, I was like, it's not going to happen. I was like, I'll tell you exactly what I would do if I was in your situation. I had to lose the weight. I would stop eating and do a boatload of cardio and neither of those things are fun. Those are like my two least favorite things. So, uh, so I was like, yeah, you can try it. He was like, okay, okay. Went and tried it. Sure enough lost maybe.

five pounds in two months. And I was like, are you ready to listen to me? He's like, okay, what do we do? I was like, okay, we can work with this now. So I gave him a good program. I was just, you just got to eat enough sometimes. And tracking is kind of tough. I would, I would, tracking is not easy. I don't do it anymore, but it is a great thing to, you should do it at least for three to six months at some point. So you know what you're eating. You eat food every day. You should know how much food you're eating and what's in it.

That's another thing we can get into too is just the amount of crap that's in food these days and what exactly to eat. Yeah. I want to come back to that. Yeah. The reverse diet piece is I know coach Lauren, who was, you know, helped me co-host this podcast forever. So she moved out to Utah. She was a big fan of the reverse diet, which I think just hit people funny where it's, it's your metabolism. If you're an average person, 40 years old, kids, job, stress,

running around, no time for yourself, time for everybody else, da da. And then you added track and food on top of it. Yeah, there's one more thing. And now I have to work out, you know, and you know, how challenging, you know, this is with all the things going on, to reverse diet. And instead of, hey, I'm at 1500 calories a day. I eat three meals of 500 calories a piece, da da, and I want to, you know,

Most people would scale that down. Hey, I'm gonna eat less. I'm gonna eat less. Where you're saying the smarter realm is gonna be hey, I'm gonna take you from 1500 up to 800 1800 Yeah for a period of time, you know and See where this goes. Yeah, I never and I also never have somebody eat less than a thousand calories a day That's just very unhealthy in general You can do it for a short period of time like maybe a week or two Like I've also done like three day fast stuff like that. Yeah, that's interesting and fun. But

build up 300 calories at a time. As soon as you get used to it, 300 more calories. And the way you know when to stop or when to reverse back is when you feel like you can't eat any more food. When you're like, I feel like I'm stuffed. And I'm like, okay, well, now we can work our way back down. And you just do it the opposite. Now we cut two or 300 calories at a time every two to four weeks. And you work your way down. You also lose less muscle this way. And...

And people don't like it because you lose like, I mean, people can lose a lot of weight on it, but it's like two to three pounds a week. And that's just not fast enough for people. But I'm like, listen, are you going to stop working out in a year? Like, no. Okay. Well then we can keep doing this for you. Do this for two or three years. You're going to be in a perfect spot where you can, you can have pizza three days a week, you know, and it's not going to affect you as much because now you've put, you've laid the groundwork. You have the muscle that's going to support you eating in this world that throws.

crappy food at you all day long. And I mean, sometimes it's unavoidable, man. You got birthday parties, you got stuff for your kids, you got people at work bringing in food. Like who wants to be the one person that's like, oh no, I can't. Like I don't do that anymore. I just like, and another big, this is what I got from Mind Pump too is, there's a big difference between I can't have that and I don't want that. I tell people that all the time. When I see it, they're like, oh, you're not gonna eat. And I'm like, I can have that. I just, it's.

what I know what's gonna do to me and like, and it may not even be like, it's like the taste doesn't really do it for me. So it's just like, I'm not gonna just eat just to like fit in and have that with you guys. Same thing with alcohol for me to be honest. And in the volleyball scene, that's a lot of, people just go to drink and have fun. And I'm just like, and they're like, I've never seen you drink. I was like, yeah, I know. It doesn't do a whole lot for me. Like the negative effects from it versus what I'll get out of it positively, just it.

for me personally, doesn't do it. Yeah, no, I'm with you there. My wife and I have never been big drinkers and it just got into the point where it just like, this isn't, we'd have a little beer in the garage fridge or something like that. Then gosh, it's now that has just expired and it's just, you know, for me to like come home after a hard day work and break open a beer, just like, I don't feel good. It just doesn't like. I remember trying it when I.

Cause I felt like an old man working at Chrysler like 21, 22, and I come home and I'm like, why everybody, they all talk about, cause you know, the crowd that works there. Yeah. Oh yeah. You just go home and you open a cup of beers. I'm like, okay, let me try. I tried it once and I was like, this is terrible. And I felt like crap passed out on the couch. And I was like, okay, never again. That's, I can't relate to people that live that way. Personally, I try to actively avoid those kinds of people. Yeah. I think some people are attracted to it more. I don't know. It doesn't do much for me. No.

So I think here I want to cross more couple T's and a couple I's and people who are like still listening to this reverse diet thing and trying to figure out because the you take somebody from 1500 calories to 1800 calories to 2100 calories through this time they are banging weights. Yeah. Lifting weights. Absolutely. Getting stronger. Getting stronger. Adding muscle. Adding muscle. Upping that whole metabolic engine you know that we have in which to which to burn. Get up to say 2400 calories.

making this up. That's usually where my females that I've trained that's kind of where they like they get mad at me. Yeah, you know, they start getting frustrated. I'm like, okay, if you're getting mad at me, we can start reverse now. Well, and if you eat good healthy meat, vegetables, fruits, personally, starchy stuff doesn't sit well with me, but you know, if you have some of that, you know, it's different for everybody. That's a lot of that can be a lot of food.

Like that 2400 calories can be a lot of food. That's actually when it comes to ingesting healthy food, that's where I tap out. Yeah. And that's where I myself have to work in junk. Uh, because, and I don't mean junk, like junk junk. Like for example, I don't eat like on occasion, I will, but like chips and like small cookies and like candy, those are things that just have no nutritional value, like at all. It doesn't have, and it doesn't do much for me. Like I eat them and I'm not full. Like it's just.

It's something that I try to, and most people have problems with those foods, because it's just, the problem is they're very cheap as well. So cheap. So cheap to just get and grab and eat, but those things, they also, they work against you in a lot of ways, the gut health, the amount of, I mean, you can look at the back of a bag of Doritos and it says it's got red dye four. And you're like, I thought stuff wasn't supposed to have that. I think it's funny. We'll go to whatever little, now that it's summer and stuff like that, you know, our friends are having little parties and grill out and stuff like that, you know.

And so, you know, we'll bring a little dish to pass type thing, but we're never prepared with it. So, you know, we stopped by schnucks, you know, on the way. We looked to see what's going on. You know, you could buy, you know, a massive thing of cookies for, you know, two dollars and 50 cents. Or you can spend, you know, seven times that and you buy a fruit tray. I'm just like, oh, gosh, you know, but then we'll make, you know, the gym people. So we have to bring the fruit platter. We can't we can't bring the cookies.

but it's so annoying where I could spend less than three bucks. It is. It's frustrating even for me when I go to the store sometimes and I'm like, even the healthier stuff expires quicker. Yeah. Like, come on. But it's just, you know, it's stuff you got to do in this world that they're trying to get you at every corner they can. They don't care about your health. You know, you need to care about your health. Nobody else does. Yeah. Very true. Very true. Did we exhaust the reverse dieting thing? People gain a ton of, you know, they gain muscle. Ideally over this time they put on, I don't know.

pounds of muscle, 10 pounds, depends on who it is. And then at that point, that 2400 point, they're bigger, stronger, feeling amazing, metabolic engine is running because now they have more muscle mass, you know, just helping to get these calories and calories out. They're feeling good. Now we back them up from 2400 down to 2100. Yep. And people always ask me to cut their calories back and they're like, I can't eat this much. As soon as I cut them back to 300,

Oh, actually I did overeat today again. And I'm like, no, you gotta be consistent with this stuff, man. Uh, so yeah, cut back down to 2100. You stay there. And another sign every time you cut back is you should be a little hungry. No, actually, if you're not hungry, that's a red flag. I had somebody that I was training that they were eating maybe one meal a day. Oh, but what, but I bet you eat today and they're like, no, I'm not hungry. No giant red flag.

Yeah. Because that means your body is so used to it, it's not going to adapt. Oh geez. Yes. So I, I've seen it all, but yeah, cutting back to 2100, you stay there until you feel like you're not really losing any more weight. You cut it back again. You go down until you feel like you're maybe cutting into your muscle a lot. And then you start it back over. Even if you haven't lost all the weight you want to lose, if you lose enough muscle, you're not going to look like the way you want to look by the time you get there anyway. So why would you want to do that? Yeah.

You don't want to just be small. I mean, nobody's in here to look scrawny. You want to put on that muscle. And if you don't look that way, you got to start it up again. Redo it. And I do it more intuitively now just because I can look at food and be like, oh, that's 400 calories. And as soon as you do it for a little while, that's what you get. You're able to do that. But I try not to do as I say, not as I do a lot of the time. But it's because I've been doing it for a long time.

eight years now. And it's just, it's the little stuff you learn along the way, the little tips and tricks. Yeah, I think the thing I love about the whole reverse diet, it aligns so much to the cycling piece that we're talking about with the strength training thing where you're, you know, if you just keep your body give your body this one stimulus, it will adjust. So whether that be strength training, whether it be nutrition, like it just makes sense. Either way, yes, the body is going to adjust and you're going to be

stuck in the same spot if you don't make adjustments. And when you're cutting those calories, do not stop lifting weights. If anything, that's when you go heavy and you go hard because you got to keep telling your body, we need this muscle actually. So when people, you'll know I did this once, man. I lost 15 pounds in like a month trying to get ready for vacation one time. And I was strength training a lot. And then once I started cutting, I was like, all I'm going to do is circuits and I'm going to stop eating. I did that. I thought I was good because I lost.

15, 16 pounds, I went and got one of the DexA scans. Eight pounds of it was muscle and seven pounds of it was fat. And I was like, okay, that, you know, I can't even put on eight pounds of muscle that fast. But you can lose it that fast. You know, it comes off quick. Yeah, it's made, well, let me tell you, as you get older, it gets worse too. Like that, trying to just coming back off this, this wrist surgery last year, and really this some thumb surgery at the end of last year.

the arm shrinkage that I had going on. Oh, yeah. And just that after it's been, it's been enlightening and extremely frustrating at the same time. I'm trying to like get back to where it was. And it's a slow process. And as I know all about that, man, I don't like Yeah, you know, injuries. I'll never forget. The first time I had my surgery, no one told me like, the amount of muscle loss you would have taken off the bandage for the first time and seeing my

left quad be half the size of my right was I was like, Oh my god, and I'm like a 14 year old kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is very humbling. Yeah. Well, and I struggle with if you look at, at older people, you know, as you know, that surgery thing, grandpa slips on the ice and breaks a hip, you know, how hard is it for grandpa to get that muscle mass back on insanely hard for him to get back on. So like, he, he probably won't come back.

you know, to get back to where he was previous and it was one slip on the ice one time. So, you know, that's something I think about all the time because if you're like weight training just does so much man. Like if weight training was a pill, you know how expensive it would be like grandpa may not have broken his hip if he had been weight training because it also builds up your bone density. Like it makes you impervious to a lot of those things that can normally hurt you. Including eating crappy food sometimes.

If you're able to build up that engine and get your calories up to a certain point, you can work in junk a lot more often and it doesn't affect you as much. What's the line with, you can't outwork a bad diet, which I don't disagree with, but for me, and what I'm finding for so many of our people is that strength piece, that lifting piece, that workout piece is that first domino, because if they lift, they...

work out, they feel good, they leave the gym, that feeling that you were talking about earlier, like, I don't love working out, but I love the feeling after I've worked out. Well, then that then you go home that carries into the kitchen. And now we eat better. And ideally, then we sleep better because that lifting you. Now you're tired, you know, I can't sleep. I haven't worked out that day. Yeah, seriously. I swear. Yeah, I'm the same way. And it doesn't even have to be for me. I'm to the point where I work out every day. And it's, it's not a

go under a barbell and that's quite heavy. Six days a week. Exactly, yeah. You know, but it's getting the dogs out to the dog park and, you know, me walking for 45 minutes. Yes. Or I'll even, I love rucking. I am on a ruck kick right now. I just, it's, it can be so hard. It can be so challenging. I have a 45 pound weight vest and then I have a just old beat up heavy duty backpack that I can hold 70 pounds in. And so like, if I want to walk around my,

neighborhood with 115 pounds on my back, I can. Even though I look like a crazy person, but I don't care. I don't know. It's just- 100%. Where am I going with that? Bringing it back. But, you know, it's- where was I going with that? What was I talking about? Oh, working out every day, just to keep that- with that fitness. Because I find if I don't work out, even if it's a walk, even if it's something low level, go around the block a couple times, blah, I am thrown off.

Like two days ago, I did a ton of traveling. I was up in Madison, drove back, da da, took the kids to soccer and back and back. I felt like I was just sitting all day. And like, I did eat well, but I didn't want to. Like it was a chore to be like, oh my gosh, I stopped to get gas. What did I want to do? I wanted to walk in that gas station and buy the first thing that came, just because I want like, ah. Good luck finding a healthy snack at a gas station. Oh my gosh. There's a little beef jerky, but it's not exactly good meat. Oh my gosh, it's not, yeah, it's not good.

No, yeah, that's you got to bring your own snacks. Yeah, honestly, that's what I did. That's the only reason I got through Yeah, I mean the healthiest thing there is water. Yeah Yeah, it probably has caffeine or something in it. You know, I Filter all my water. Yeah, I really do There's like little things that I do that like are more of my mythology But like I try to get my feet in the grass every day like I'll consider Sitting in a pigeon stretch for five minutes a workout sometimes. That's our thing people can

they can learn a lot from that. Just like there are days where if you really don't feel like working out and it's like bringing you down, you're probably better off not doing it that day. Because there's a lot of times where like I would push myself to work out and I was like that was the shittiest workout I have ever done and I just wasted an hour and a half because now I'm sore and I'm not gonna be ready for tomorrow's workout. I would have been better off just taking it easy in a parasympathetic state and just relaxing versus

pushing myself because I also just like wasted my day killing myself to get there. There's times where like, you know, I would sit there and there'd be like four hours or go by and I'm like, I was supposed to work out and I finally get up to do it. And I was like, not only could I have saved myself the workout time, but the killing myself for the four hours before feeling shitty about myself, not working out. If I had just taken it easy and said, you know, it don't work out today, you would have been fine. That is for the people that work out too much. That's not for the person that can't get into the gym. That's very different. Yeah.

very different advice. Dude, I've gone both ways, but I've so much lowered my standard with, okay, I'm not feeling great, we're gonna try this. If I feel good, I'll keep going with it. But if I feel like crap, I'm gonna be three sets in and be done and not care. Because I used to care, but there's no way. I can't, back in my triathlon training days and stuff like that, if I'm gonna go out.

I wouldn't go out and run 3.75 miles because why wouldn't you not just run that extra 400 and run four miles? So I'd be that goofball running back and forth in front of my house trying to get those last X amount of feet because obviously that made a difference. Psychotic I was. But now I'm to the point where, again, I see you go both ways. These are just tired and sore and da-da-da. You loosen up, you get in there, you feel pretty good. And then you leave and you're like, gosh, I'm glad I did that. But then also the other way, oh my God, I feel like...

I feel terrible. Should I do this? What about supposed to make you feel better, not worse? If your training style is making you feel shittier, you probably need to change up your training style. Very much so. I go back to that Goldilocks thing. I think that's neat. If you Google, there's a little, whatever, picture diagram-y thing. It just makes sense. Like, oh. I don't know. I'm such a, you know. I agree. You know, whatever visual learner that like, oh. No, I am too. I am terrible with like.

reading things and doing them. If somebody can like help and show me and like walk me through it. I am 10 times better at whatever that's why I like the podcast thing because I think it's an easier medium for me to digest that information. Yeah. Oh, 100%. Yeah. And you can do it while you're also doing other things. It all works out. Yeah. Moral historical being like, too much is bad. Yes, too much is too little. Too little is bad. You have to find what's just right. Yeah. But understand that just right is going to change as you go. And so what worked for you

in your 20s is going to be different than 30s, which would be different than 40s. It's also going to be different at the beginning of this journey, fitness journey for you versus where you'll be two, three, four, five years down the road. Like you're gonna be a completely different athlete. You know, I'll use the word athlete here, you know, yeah. Person that's able to do stuff, you know, then what you are when you first started and you're deconditioned and out of shape. And it's, I, I try to save people from themselves all the time because they, they just want to go.

hard. I'm like, you haven't worked out in five years and you're extremely overweight and doing calf raises your calves cramp up. So you have no business working out more than two, maybe three days a week. Because what's going to happen is you're going to end up getting hurt or burnt out. Take it easy on yourself. Get used to it. Just practice the movements and get good at it. And little by little you will get better. Just be patient with it. And yes, man.

being patient and I struggle with it because I'm not patient myself. But ironically enough with fitness, I am just cause I've, I've learned to do it over the years. Yeah. I've seen it pay, pay dividends. Yeah. Well, and the bottom line at the end of this, you have to make it a habit. You have to, for the most part, enjoy the habit. Yes. Yeah. What I always say, the best workout plan or diet for you is the one that you can stick to every time.

That never fails. Yeah, because the jumping on, jumping off, jumping on, jumping off, not gonna work. No, no. Because I do love, I think that's the magic sauce right there. If you're able to strength train three days a week, I like the number three personally. And, and I don't think that should be too much for people. If it is too much for people, you just go easier on those days. Like I just, and maybe I'm just logging in with no hundred people my age group, but like, I don't want that many days between you know,

training sessions to kind of, you know. Cause there is a muscle building signal that you will send to your body and it does last for that, I believe it's 48 to 72 hours. So a lot of times I get people they'll work out like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and they won't be in the gym again until Monday. And I'm like, you would have been so much better doing a Monday, Wednesday, Friday than doing it that way. Very much so. West Side Barbell back in the day would have their, you know, Monday, Thursday being their whatever lower body days, one dynamic, one max effort.

They'd go whatever, Tuesday, Saturday or something like that or Wednesday, Saturday with their upper body dynamic and whatever, sorry, we don't have to go down West Side. Kyle, you've been here a while. What didn't I ask you that you wish I would have asked you? No, I think we covered a lot of it, man. No, I just, I love nutrition, I love training. That's why I do it for a living. You don't have to do it for a living to look good and feel good.

listen to the people that have done it for a while. If I had known how much a trainer could have done for me in the beginning and just like save my shoulders and save me from myself, I would have hired one, but my ego wouldn't let me at the time. And you know, I did learn a lot of things for myself along the way that maybe they stick better because I went through it myself, but trainers and coaches can really help a lot of people. So if you're out there and it's, you know, you feel like if you're on your own nearby yourself, like there is a lot of people that wanna help. Yeah.

Very, very much so. I, it's fine. We will. I've had coaches, you know, in whatever this fitness realm, but then also like business coaches. Yeah, you know, again, you just got, you know, the NCI and the, you know, ATG and yeah, I think it's never a thing where you've arrived, like you're always trying to learn and figure this out and, you know, learn from people who like and you can, again, you could do it our, I own P90X back in the day.

And Sandy wasn't out when I first started, but like, and you can get there, but like, it's just going to be a roundabout way in which to get to your goals as opposed to, you know, in our humble opinion, we think hiring somebody can get you there much faster. And now coming from me, I've like, now that I'm trying to learn a lot of volleyball, I try to get around a lot of coaches and I'm seeing how important it is to be around, like I get around people that have been playing for 25 years and I've been playing for two and I'm like, okay, you know a lot more than I.

And I do, and now coming from a coach and seeing how it works both ways, I'm more than willing to learn and listen to those guys. Yeah. Very cool. Kyle, people want to find you and see what you're doing. Where do they go on the socials? Instagram and Facebook, Kyle Lussman. You can find it on there. Spell Lussman for people. L-U-S-M-A-N-N. 1S, two N's. Yep. We make it a little difficult, but that's okay. Yeah. There we go. Well, Kyle, thanks so much. Yeah, no problem, buddy. Thanks for taking the time. Thank you. Yeah, this was fun.

This is a lot of fun. Listeners, thanks for listening. We will catch you on the next one.

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